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Standards and their role in a certain culture

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by VEGETA_DTX on Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:33 am

Even though we all take art subjectively that doesn't mean that standards doesn't exist. I mean, start studying any form of art and you'll find them in any book, encyclopedia, etc.
But then another question arises, WHO are those people and why would I mold by their standards? I have my opinion, my freedom and I can whether accept it or not, its my free will, and I personally ignore any kind of standards except physical laws and sense of moral.
Anyone else is free to chose as well.

IMO art is something that cannot be standardized or limited, its just something made by someone out inspiration and idea, with the intention to cast some impression and/or message on the audience, if it fails for you, that means that you PERSONALLY don't consider it as an art, which doesn't mean that somebody else can't consider it as an art.

The BEAUTY of art is its freedom and difference in tastes, if it was standardized it would be business not an art...so rather than saying STANDARDS you better say "certain molds by which you will succeed or not" but if you are an artist, ART is for you on the first place and then profit from it on the second place.

So I consider art as a 100% subjective thing.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:22 am

Heh, you're very close to the correct conclusion but you don't seem to grasp it.
People which opinion matters are, like I stated, the elite in every society.
We all are accepting certain standards, values(like you said- moral values(which is btw. a big area)). And then we also set up some of our own standards and combine it. You are free to chose, but the big question is- would society accept your choice? Do you see where I'm going with this now?
When it comes to the art I would personally avoid statements like- this is not art...There are standards for those too. Now of course you are free to have your own opinion, but like I said- society doesn't care about your opinion. Your opinion matters only when you're being targeted as a consumer. Your opinion also matters if you're a very creative artist, member of the elite, who had, has, will have a great influence in a culture of a certain society(or on a even larger scale), thus setting, perhaps, some new standards in the future.
I think that standard is a perfect word. You are free to choose your taste, of course, but that has nothing to do with the standards which a certain society holds.
Society has it's values, you can't separate the whole culture from it and say that nothing is standardized. It's the basics of sociology. Take tradition for an example. Law is the best example, of course, but I would like to stay in the art section. Let's say that I want to become a skilled painter or an architect or a fashion designer. There are schools for such things (of course there are, let's say, painters that haven't went to schools but that doesn't mean that they weren't influenced by the standards of a society in which they worked)and in those schools you learn about the composition, colors etc. You're basically accepting certain standards, rules.
A very simple example- pink and green-a terrible mixture isn't it? And now by your logic - you will say:"Yes, I don't like it, but that's my subjective feeling." Now look it from this point- "I like it and it's my subjective feeling or I'm color blind so who cares I got my own subjective feeling."
The point of this all- Yes, but nobody cares (except for the people close to you) about your subjective feelings, society has it's own standards. And by those standards- you can't make it as a fashion designer if you combine those two colors. Do you understand me now?

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by VEGETA_DTX on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:26 am

Welcome son! thanx for your opinion! Smile

@ningen,
You seem to not get my point. Nobody said that there those "standards" set by majority or some elite does not EXIST, but my point is WHO should and WHY should I care about their standards? If I don't follow them, they're automatically not standards for me, and I have rights on that, and thats all that matters to me.
And now you'll say "but nobody will accept that yours as an art then..." and I'd say "I don't care, their right, their taste, their thing...I want to make what I wanted to make not what majority will watch/look/read"
If I'm gonna care only for profit, then I'm gonna do some BUSINESS, if I'm gonna care for doing what I want and what I like, but still somehow living from it(or even just doing what I want without any profit) then I am gonna do ART.

Art is not aiming for more people or for elite to accept your art, but is aiming on what YOU or your team(which shares that same vision) wanted to create/express, as close as possible to the imagined blueprint in your head.
That is MINE definition of art...in fact! the moment you put some standards or profit far above how YOU and your team REALLY wanted to do it, then that is not anymore an art, that is a business to me.

Also I would never ever consider art as something that should be "learned" by education...by the simple reason that Art cannot be LEARNED, it can just be practiced, in case you aren't already able to create what you want.

A very simple example- pink and green-a terrible mixture isn't it?
OOOOOW don't get me started there ningen Very Happy you know I am a HUUUUUGEEE hater of fashion and those color standards Smile
Honestly, in my opinion I don't see ANY color combination in this world being TOTALLY bad in all cases, as well as totally good in all cases...
Pink and green can be whether disgusting or beautiful combination, it depends not only on color for me, but on material shadings, shape, topology and composition. Example of great pink + green combination - Piccolo.
Even though I dislike pink color(not to mention that its symbolizing femininity) but it can fit awesome in some situations on some parts by some composition.
You've watched the whole DBZ and you never ever thought about Piccolo looking......gay....now did you? why? - cause its awesomely composed its not standardized, it have its own standards which we DB fans LIKE according to our tastes.
You see?

For me fashion is one huge illusion in heads of people who follow it, and I will never understand fashion fanatics, I really HATE FASHION and other illusions forced by the society and its particular taste, and the discrimination they put on anyone who actually tries to be HIMSELF, and not care about any fashion standards.

The point of this all- Yes, but nobody cares (except for the people close to you) about your subjective feelings
And even more important point is - Yes, sure, but DO I care about the fact that majority or elite dislikes lets say some my artwork?
NO! of course not, to be honest with you, that's even awesome! Smile lets say I were some mangaka or such, I would always prefer to have smaller but purer fanbase, than majority of manga fans to be fans of my work who will btw later on ruin my work deforming it with pop culture through generations and THEN that deformed remainder of my work set as a standard to some other people such as I was :S

Even if, lets again say, I were some successful mangaka and millions and millions of people would be fans of my work, I would never turn away from my ideals and principles for the purpose of profit and fame.

I've been always super agreeing with that good old "Less is more!" Wink

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:45 am

"but my point is WHO should and WHY should I care about their standards?"

That depends, if we are talking about the law, then you should, of course, care. If we are talking about art, then you care more than you think you care. Every community has it's own taboos, moral norms and that also applies when we talk about the culture of one community. You're looking it from a wrong perspective, nobody is forcing it upon you so that you'll lose your own individuality.

"If I don't follow them, they're automatically not standards for me, and I have rights on that, and thats all that matters to me."
Wrong conception. As I said, what you follow is your own thing as long as you don't end up in jail. Society has it's standards and you have yours, but that doesn't mean the cancellation of those two.
"I don't care, their right, their taste, their thing...I want to make what I wanted to make not what majority will watch/look/read"
Of course, and what you'll make will be according to the norms of a culture in which you're trying to present your work as an artist. Without it you'll end up in jail, or trying not to get in one.
"If I'm gonna care only for profit, then I'm gonna do some BUSINESS, if I'm gonna care for doing what I want and what I like, but still somehow living from it(or even just doing what I want without any profit) then I am gonna do ART."
That doesn't change the fact that your art will be according to the standards, at least in the minimal possible way.
"Art is not aiming for more people or for elite to accept your art, but is aiming on what YOU or your team(which shares that same vision) wanted to create/express, as close as possible to the imagined blueprint in your head.
That is MINE definition of art...in fact! the moment you put some standards or profit far above how YOU and your team REALLY wanted to do it, then that is not anymore an art, that is a business to me."
But you don't do it just for you, you want other people to see it, right? And those people will give you their opinions, critics. I'm talking about that kind of art, not the one someone does in his basement without the intention to present it to the world.
"Also I would never ever consider art as something that should be "learned" by education...by the simple reason that Art cannot be LEARNED, it can just be practiced, in case you aren't already able to create what you want."
Wrong conception. Education is important, it can help you became a great artist. I don't understand how can you not see it- Let's say that you want to become a ballet dancer. Now, you can train at home(watching some video, reading a book, or by a friend)or you can go to a ballet school. Either way those moves that you're trying to learn are all standardized, and when you perform people that are familiar with it(the elite, experts)will give you their opinion. You can say- I want to create a new dance- that's great but you'll must know something about the history of dance, don't you agree. I'm not talking here about some dance that you'll do alone in your room or with a couple of your friends. So it's not that it can't be learned, it's the quite opposite - it must be learned. We are in the process of learning through are whole life. Very Happy Do you understand me now?
"I am a HUUUUUGEEE hater of fashion and those color standards...For me fashion is one huge illusion in heads of people who follow it, and I will never understand fashion fanatics, I really HATE FASHION and other illusions forced by the society and its particular taste, and the discrimination they put on anyone who actually tries to be HIMSELF, and not care about any fashion standards."
You are making me repeat this- Society doesn't care about your subjective opinion about the color standards, fashion... (And dammit I knew you'll mention Piccolo. XD) Moving on...
"Yes, sure, but DO I care about the fact that majority or elite dislikes lets say some my artwork?"
You're still missing the point- The fact that elite, experts in certain arts dislike your work doesn't mean that your work is not according to the standards in general. It can mean that your work is lacking some quality.
What you prefer (a small\large fanbase) is of no importance to this discussion.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by 4Neodemon on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:01 pm

LOL... its amazing!! By reading DTX comments, i thought i was reading my own comments (but with better english and well explained...lol).... i totally agree with everything you said, since the DBE issue, to the fact that you really do not care about, what people think about you!!! we live as we want, and not conditioned by the standards imposed by the society...


Ningen, remember picasso??? the guy created his own style in his lifetime years!!and nobody like that... in fact there is a story about a thief who broke into picasso's house and the guy took everything except Picasso paintings...LOL
i do not like picasso work (in fact i don't appreciate any painting in general), but i admire his attitude by making something totally different and way from the mentality in that time!!! (picasso work was only recognised in the modern days)



ningen wrote:

You are making me repeat this- Society doesn't care about your subjective opinion about the color standards, fashion... (And dammit I knew you'll mention Piccolo. XD) Moving on...

i have to disagree here... they do care... everyone cares, and that is todays one of the main problems in the world!!! if you do not dress or act like the society standards they judge you and make fun of you... its ridiculous... someone wasting time to talk about someone bad hair or excentric clothes... for me.. its insane, superficial!!! i just think... who cares??? everyone is unique.. who am i to judge someone?? (most important.. who cares about a superficial thing like that??...lol).. to bad most people are arrogant to the point, they think they have the right to judge the others (in most of the cases they are not even better...LOL)
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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:16 am

4Neodemon wrote:LOL... its amazing!! By reading DTX comments, i thought i was reading my own comments (but with better english and well explained...lol).... i totally agree with everything you said, since the DBE issue, to the fact that you really do not care about, what people think about you!!! we live as we want, and not conditioned by the standards imposed by the society...


Ningen, remember picasso??? the guy created his own style in his lifetime years!!and nobody like that... in fact there is a story about a thief who broke into picasso's house and the guy took everything except Picasso paintings...LOL
i do not like picasso work (in fact i don't appreciate any painting in general), but i admire his attitude by making something totally different and way from the mentality in that time!!! (picasso work was only recognised in the modern days)



ningen wrote:

You are making me repeat this- Society doesn't care about your subjective opinion about the color standards, fashion... (And dammit I knew you'll mention Piccolo. XD) Moving on...

i have to disagree here... they do care... everyone cares, and that is todays one of the main problems in the world!!! if you do not dress or act like the society standards they judge you and make fun of you... its ridiculous... someone wasting time to talk about someone bad hair or excentric clothes... for me.. its insane, superficial!!! i just think... who cares??? everyone is unique.. who am i to judge someone?? (most important.. who cares about a superficial thing like that??...lol).. to bad most people are arrogant to the point, they think they have the right to judge the others (in most of the cases they are not even better...LOL)
"we live as we want, and not conditioned by the standards imposed by the society..."
Hehehe, wrong. I must say that that's a really naive point of view. You just failed the basics of sociology.
"remember picasso?"
I wrote in one of my replies, that the extraordinary people expand, change, have a great influence in a culture of a certain society. Picasso had his own style, yes, but that doesn't mean that he rejected all standards in his culture. for example- you don't see a painting with a taboo scene painted.
"they do care"- society cares about your opinion in the amount that is proportional to your influence, power in a certain society.
"if you do not dress or act like the society standards they judge you and make fun of you... its ridiculous."
You two just got the totally wrong, childish concept of how society works and what standards mean.
Like I said- if you wanna dance a certain dance (like ballet) you gotta learn the moves. And yes the experts will judge your moves. And if your moves are anything except ballet moves you'll cause a negative reaction from the audience. But that doesn't mean that you're opinion is important. You'll probably never get the chance to perform such dance in front of the big audience again. Now you can say- but that's how I experience ballet. And the people will tell you- That's great, but that's not what ballet is. You dance something that's different, so create you own dance if you want. Now you can be a very creative person like Picasso and create one, new dance. But even such dance will have it's own standards. And if people in the future want to dance it, they will have to follow such standards.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by 4Neodemon on Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:31 pm

ningen wrote:
"we live as we want, and not conditioned by the standards imposed by the society..."
Hehehe, wrong. I must say that that's a really naive point of view. You just failed the basics of sociology.

lol...Why??? i really do not care of what people think of me... i live in my own way and not conditioned by some ridiculous standards... im not going to act in a certain way only to earn more friends or to become more popular... for me that its just stupid!!! true friends or decent people accept you for what you are and not for what they want you to be!!!
of course that in a professional level that changes... you have to follow your boss orders or the Law..lol... you do not want to get fired or being arrested..ehehe... im was talking in a personal level!!


ningen wrote:
"if you do not dress or act like the society standards they judge you and make fun of you... its ridiculous."
You two just got the totally wrong, childish concept of how society works and what standards mean.
Like I said- if you wanna dance a certain dance (like ballet) you gotta learn the moves. And yes the experts will judge your moves. And if your moves are anything except ballet moves you'll cause a negative reaction from the audience. But that doesn't mean that you're opinion is important. You'll probably never get the chance to perform such dance in front of the big audience again. Now you can say- but that's how I experience ballet. And the people will tell you- That's great, but that's not what ballet is. You dance something that's different, so create you own dance if you want. Now you can be a very creative person like Picasso and create one, new dance. But even such dance will have it's own standards. And if people in the future want to dance it, they will have to follow such standards.

yes... of course, i totally agree with you in here!!! but that is in a professional level... the stuff i was trying to say to you is in a personal level Wink
of course that if im not an expert in ballet my oppinion would not count and nobody would listen to it anyway.. LOL... but for example when people start to dress in some way and want you to do the same only because an expert in fashion said a particullar clothe is "in", for me its absurd... people have to think for theirselfs to!! in a fashion contest i have nothing to say, but otherwise its just ridiculous!!!
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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by VEGETA_DTX on Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:00 pm

"If I don't follow them, they're automatically not standards for me, and I have rights on that, and thats all that matters to me."
Wrong conception. As I said, what you follow is your own thing as long as you don't end up in jail. Society has it's standards and you have yours, but that doesn't mean the cancellation of those two.
"I don't care, their right, their taste, their thing...I want to make what I wanted to make not what majority will watch/look/read"
Of course, and what you'll make will be according to the norms of a culture in which you're trying to present your work as an artist. Without it you'll end up in jail, or trying not to get in one.
But you're mixing law with art...I myself said that you should follow only two laws, law in your country/region and moral law(or your sense of moral), and of course there is third physical law that includes everything, but what that have to do with art standards?

If I do some art it doesn't have to belong to the culture of region where I live in at all...it does not have to belong to anything that already exists, if I want so,
That IS the beauty of it, it CAN but it doesn't HAVE TO.

That doesn't change the fact that your art will be according to the standards
But how can you be so sure about my art being by standards? Very Happy
Here I personally prove you, trust me ningen many things that I'll eventually do won't have anything to do with any art standards culture or such...Very Happy

But you don't do it just for you, you want other people to see it, right? And those people will give you their opinions, critics. I'm talking about that kind of art, not the one someone does in his basement without the intention to present it to the world.
If I'd make some art piece I would of course try to show it to people and publish it(I mean, otherwise whats the point? Very Happy) but NOT to MAKE it appealed to them...just to make it the way I wanted to make it, and then if some like it great! if some dislike it again great! even if only one person in this whole world likes it still GREAT! if NOBODY likes it literally, not great, but that sure won't make me change my art, it will just disappoint me on how nobody have taste as I...but I guess thats not even a disappointment thats...I don't know...the point is that I won't change my style of art even if nobody in this world likes it, not even a bit.

Wrong conception. Education is important, it can help you became a great artist. I don't understand how can you not see it- Let's say that you want to become a ballet dancer. Now, you can train at home(watching some video, reading a book, or by a friend)or you can go to a ballet school. Either way those moves that you're trying to learn are all standardized, and when you perform people that are familiar with it(the elite, experts)will give you their opinion. You can say- I want to create a new dance- that's great but you'll must know something about the history of dance, don't you agree. I'm not talking here about some dance that you'll do alone in your room or with a couple of your friends. So it's not that it can't be learned, it's the quite opposite - it must be learned. We are in the process of learning through are whole life. Very Happy Do you understand me now?

But you don't get my point(btw I don't consider ballet as an art...rather as a sport but ok) if you want to make something that YOU WANT TO MAKE, you only need your idea and inspiration + tools/abilities(the ways of doing what you want) and only this second(tools/abilities) is what you need to "learn", but you don't need school for that at all, you can learn it trough practice yourself, or have someone to help you.
Do you get me now?

You're still missing the point- The fact that elite, experts in certain arts dislike your work doesn't mean that your work is not according to the standards in general.
But how are you so sure all this time that it will be by what? Culture and Art standards are not physical laws so that everything must be done according to it...
I assure you many of things that I'll eventually make wont have anything to do with any kinds of standards except the physical law, moral law, resource limit and such...They MIGHT do with some culture pretty much! they MIGHT be heavily influenced by many things(best example - DBZ) but they doesn't HAVE TO....thats the beauty of it.

Any kind of art standard, any mold and any "omg look at what that peasant is wearing" wont touch me, I shape myself ONLY by my own taste and style, not by some others fashion nor by the time I live in.

@4Neodemon, I am glad you agree and have similar opinion as mine Smile (and yeah I know my english goes more and more horrible as I go in depth when explaining Razz)

Sure for Picasso! totally agreed, I totally don't see anything in Picasso's artwork but I respect him for being himself even if it made him look like some "idiot" in the eyes of people back then and still today.

@ningen again, Gosh I love talking about this but much more verbally not textually Smile so I wish I could come there in BG to meet you and Darko again after so much time, so not only we could explain and make conclusions easier and quicker but after that we could have more fun and of course most importantly celebrate about DBE's financial fail Razz


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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:08 pm

"lol...Why??? i really do not care of what people think of me... i live in my own way and not conditioned by some ridiculous standards... im not going to act in a certain way only to earn more friends or to become more popular... for me that its just stupid!!! true friends or decent people accept you for what you are and not for what they want you to be!!!
of course that in a professional level that changes... you have to follow your boss orders or the Law..lol... you do not want to get fired or being arrested..ehehe... im was talking in a personal level!!"
Well, I wasn't, not once, did I meniton personal level. Besides you're wrong even when it comes to the personal level. Every child learns the basics of the socialisation from his parents(in todays society not only parents are involved-but also schools, T.V., other kids). Not only are you bined by the law, you're bined by the customs and the moral standards of a society you live in. And you act (whether you want to admit it or not) more or less according to such standards. Stnadards which you call "ridiculous". But you can always prove me wrong- maybe you should write a thesis, I'm sure that scientists will find it interesting because it will be saying that the previous generations of scientists and those alive today got it all wrong.
I was talking about proffesional level and as I said I'm not interested in a personal one. I personally think that nobody should tell somebody else what kind of clothes he should wear. But my personal opinion is not important. Fashion and fashion designers will continue to exist and in one way that's a good thing. Because clothing is the part of the culture.
If you go out naked, you'll probably get arested. If you're a women and you go out improperly dressed in a country with the muslim culture you'll bear the consequences for your actions. Those are just some of the examples, how clothing plays the important part in every culture.
Edit:sorry Veggie, you just beat me to it, I'll reply to your post tomorow, gotta sleep now. Smile

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by VEGETA_DTX on Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:14 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MESSSS! Very Happy I gotta somehow go to BG to explain this...(and to left space for other topics, I haven't seen you ningen and Darko for years!) this way we will always end up missing each others points Smile

The main point of me and of 4Neodemon, is that when it comes to an art only thing that limits us is Physical laws, moral laws and country/region law.
Not any kind of art standard, fashion, trend or such...YOU KNOW I hate those Razz that's the first thing people learn about me for Christs sake Very Happy...ok, after being a huge fan of DB/Z Razz

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:30 am

^ Man, if you would come to BG that would be so great. You should have come with Iceman to this Japanese festival we're having. It would be awesome, I'm personally very busy, I gotta exam to fail in a couple of days (sociology XD) but who cares, I would visit this festival if you came. Of course, internet has it's flaws, so a live conversation would be so much better, if we could find a way for you two to stay here for a couple of days that would be great.
I know that you hate trends and such but that's not what I had in mind.
You and 4Neodemon are both right at this- a certain culture (and so, also art as a part of the culture)are, I don't know how better to put this- ''subjective categories."
But you're both wrong when you say that cultural standards, patterns, norms, values don't exist. Because than you'll be negating the whole culture, the whole culture of a certain society with all its special characteristics, characteristics which you will use to see the difference between two cultures. That's what I was trying to explain the whole time.
And I agree that we should probably end this discussion.
I haven't reply on your previous post, but if you want I can send you a pm to explain those things further. Smile

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by Ha! on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:58 pm

@Vegeta
Why do you use... computer standard technology?...why do you use our typing standard way?...why do you use english?... and million other things, that was product, not only of law Physical laws, moral laws and country/region law, but also the art standard, fashion, trend or such (creativity of other people) Rolling Eyes

Taking only what you like, we people of standard call that spoiled Razz
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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by VEGETA_DTX on Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:43 pm

Not only are you bined by the law, you're bined by the customs and the moral standards of a society you live in. And you act (whether you want to admit it or not) more or less according to such standards. Stnadards which you call "ridiculous". But you can always prove me wrong- maybe you should write a thesis, I'm sure that scientists will find it interesting because it will be saying that the previous generations of scientists and those alive today got it all wrong.
Scientists are the one always relying ONLY on physical laws and nothing else.

I don't know for 4Neodemon, but I can prove you for me...there sooo many things that I do that belong to non group, standard or such...If you want examples just say I have bunch of them Very Happy

If you go out naked, you'll probably get arested.
Again - wrong, I'd rather say that female fashion is heading more and more towards that "naked" thing, than free will of some free person. And now say that I'm not right?
And you again don't get it, you just name ONE out of billion possibilities of which more than half are not forbidden by any kind of law.

I am the first one respecting various cultures but I am the first one not LIMITING myself to them, just choosing and using what I LIKE and refusing what I dislike, as simple as that, its called freedom of choice.

^ Man, if you would come to BG that would be so great. You should have come with Iceman to this Japanese festival we're having. It would be awesome, I'm personally very busy, I gotta exam to fail in a couple of days (sociology XD) but who cares, I would visit this festival if you came. Of course, internet has it's flaws, so a live conversation would be so much better, if we could find a way for you two to stay here for a couple of days that would be great.
You know it bro, life is a whore... Sad its not anymore easy even to go to the capital city...all the problems, obligations, stupid obstacles and such....so I don't know when I'll be able, I can't promise anything(as always :/) but I'll try, cause it would be in deed awesome! I am so sorry for not coming there to the Japanism festival but damn it, I really wanted to come there Sad

But you're both wrong when you say that cultural standards, patterns, norms, values don't exist
Now thats where all this misunderstanding is from...no! we never said that did we 4Neodemon? we know they exist, we see them functioning everyday, but we just wanna say that it may or may not affect us, according to our decision and free will...If I am gonna buy some Japanese food, I am gonna buy it only cause I PERSONALLY like it, not cause its "IN" to eat Japanese food...kapish? cause it will be day in hell when I'll follow those "IN" trends and fashion Very Happy...I really really dislike those things...
I hope that's clear? it was definitely a huge misunderstanding.

@Sephi
Simply - Cause I WANT TO Very Happy
Cause there are also SOOO MANY other standards and things invented by the society such as fashion, molds, phrases, drugs, cigarettes, alcohol and many many more...that I just dislike and refuse to accept...

Its not about us two using those standards, cause sure I use many standards just as anybody else, but thats cause I LIKE those...and if some day I want to make something completely different and free from all standards (except Physical law, moral sense and country law), I am gonna simply do it...
However if it contains some parts of some standards it shouldn't be taken as something UNDER those standards but just as something that is accepting some parts of some standards, some yes some not.
Cause in order to be UNDER something you have to abide by every single rule of that standard and be fully consciously limited by it and supporting it...

Whole my point is about a freedom of choice and creativity, its not that those things doesn't exist, I never said that...its just that I am free to CHOSE whether or not I want to use/accept them.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by Ha! on Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:52 pm

VEGETA_DTX wrote:.
Its not about us two using those standards, cause sure I use many standards just as anybody else, but thats cause I LIKE those...and if some day I want to make something completely different and free from all standards (except Physical law, moral sense and country law), I am gonna make it trust me...I LIVE FOR IT Smile
However if it contains some parts of some standards it shouldn't be taken as something UNDER those standards but just as something that is accepting some parts of some standards, some yes some not.

The same source from which came this is the same that create those things that you want to erase... it's paradox Razz

You want perfection, like they did, when they was creating they standards...
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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:20 am

"Scientists are the one always relying ONLY on physical laws and nothing else.

I don't know for 4Neodemon, but I can prove you for me...there sooo many things that I do that belong to non group, standard or such...If you want examples just say I have bunch of them."
The problem with you and 4Neodemon is that you start form yourself. I'm telling you how society works. We all accepted certain customs, moral normes from our cultures, those are facts which you can't deny.
When you meet a friend you say stuff like- "Hello", then when you have to go- "Bye" don't tell me you don't say such stuff. You see, those are all customs.
"Again - wrong, I'd rather say that female fashion is heading more and more towards that "naked" thing, than free will of some free person. And now say that I'm not right?
And you again don't get it, you just name ONE out of billion possibilities of which more than half are not forbidden by any kind of law.

I am the first one respecting various cultures but I am the first one not LIMITING myself to them, just choosing and using what I LIKE and refusing what I dislike, as simple as that, its called freedom of choice.'
No, it's not wrong, you will get arrested in certain cultures if you go around naked and you won't in some others, those are cultural differences I was talking about.
"we know they exist, we see them functioning everyday, but we just wanna say that it may or may not affect us, according to our decision and free will"
But it affects you more than you think. And like I said, the amount is not important, because I'm talking here about a global society not just two persons.


"But you're mixing law with art...I myself said that you should follow only two laws, law in your country/region and moral law(or your sense of moral), and of course there is third physical law that includes everything, but what that have to do with art standards?"
Actually, there are three normative parts of a modern society. Customs, moral normes and the law. It's got a lot to do with art standards. You see I'm mixing them cause they are already mixed in every society.
"If I do some art it doesn't have to belong to the culture of region where I live in at all...it does not have to belong to anything that already exists, if I want so,
That IS the beauty of it, it CAN but it doesn't HAVE TO."
You are always affected to some point by a certain culture.


"But how can you be so sure about my art being by standards?
Here I personally prove you, trust me ningen many things that I'll eventually do won't have anything to do with any art standards culture or such..."
They will be. And professionals will be able to judge your work.



"If I'd make some art piece I would of course try to show it to people and publish it(I mean, otherwise whats the point? ) but NOT to MAKE it appealed to them...just to make it the way I wanted to make it, and then if some like it great! if some dislike it again great! even if only one person in this whole world likes it still GREAT! if NOBODY likes it literally, not great, but that sure won't make me change my art, it will just disappoint me on how nobody have taste as I...but I guess thats not even a disappointment thats...I don't know...the point is that I won't change my style of art even if nobody in this world likes it, not even a bit."
Again you start from yourself. I can understand that you don't care about the reactions of those that will observe, experience your art. There is only one thing that makes no sense to me. I have some of my poems that I haven't shown to anybody. I wrote them because I enjoy creating, and I don't plan to show them to anybody else. But I also wrote some poems which I wanted to show to other people and I did that. And I cared about their opinion, I showed them because I wanted to hear it. That is what people do. So, what I don't understand is- if you don't care whether or not people will like it, why do you want then to present your art to the world, just keep it to yourself.
You have to understand that the majority of artist are not like you, they do care. So you have to stop looking at things only from your angle, because then you only see a part of the truth, a partial truth.


"But you don't get my point(btw I don't consider ballet as an art...rather as a sport but ok) if you want to make something that YOU WANT TO MAKE, you only need your idea and inspiration + tools/abilities(the ways of doing what you want) and only this second(tools/abilities) is what you need to "learn", but you don't need school for that at all, you can learn it trough practice yourself, or have someone to help you."
Do you get me now?

Oh come on- you don't consider sports as a part of the culture, more important you don't consider ballet(a form of dance) as an art..."I don't consider..."- well that's the problem, you use your own personal opinion and experience to define and explain the global social processes and institutions. I'm sorry, but I really see no point in reading your further comments when it comes to this topic.

People will be able to look your work through the prism of standards, period.
And I'm done with arguing about the basic stuff.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by lol1991 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:53 am

look, I hate to point this out, but this isn't exactly the place for these conversations. You let it go WAY off topic.

I would recommend you stop...I mean, it's kinda bad when 2 mods and the admin start to go off topic in an important thread like this.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:24 pm

^ I agree. I hope that you're all o.k. with the solution to split the topics.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by lol1991 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:37 pm

No problem. It isn't my discussion.

In my opinion, standards exist, but that doesn't mean they're right most of the times.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by ningen on Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:46 pm

Of course, standards do change, cultural paterns do change, so it would be foolish to say that a certain standard means always a progress or improvement. There are some universal values (beauty for example) and standards for those are different from culture to culture.

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Re: Standards and their role in a certain culture

Post by secor on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:58 pm

VEGETA_DTX wrote:
Even though we all take art subjectively that doesn't mean that standards doesn't exist. I mean, start studying any form of art and you'll find them in any book, encyclopedia, etc.
But then another question arises, WHO are those people and why would I mold by their standards? I have my opinion, my freedom and I can whether accept it or not, its my free will, and I personally ignore any kind of standards except physical laws and sense of moral.
Anyone else is free to chose as well.

IMO art is something that cannot be standardized or limited, its just something made by someone out inspiration and idea, with the intention to cast some impression and/or message on the audience, if it fails for you, that means that you PERSONALLY don't consider it as an art, which doesn't mean that somebody else can't consider it as an art.

The BEAUTY of art is its freedom and difference in tastes, if it was standardized it would be business not an art...so rather than saying STANDARDS you better say "certain molds by which you will succeed or not" but if you are an artist, ART is for you on the first place and then profit from it on the second place.

So I consider art as a 100% subjective thing.
completely agree

that being said i consider your grammar to be art

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