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Most users ever online was 83 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:44 pm

So...as anime finally met it's match...

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:26 am

@ Son Goku
No, I keep saying that when it comes to the criminal law, it can't have a retrogade effect, that is a very important principle to protect human rights. So anything that was done before it can't be prosecuted because it wasn't a crime back then. (That principle could also apply if the similar law existed in the time crime was commited, but wasn't as strict as the new one. Only if the old law was stricter then the new law, then the new law would be applied.)
@ Lol'91
"But the people that can't tell the situations aren't acceptable and normal are mentally ill."
Lol, it doesn't work that way. Each society has its values, customs, etc. Customs and values are not unchangeable, or to be more precise they are constantly being influenced. Politics, mass-media, religion...those are all the means to influence public opinion. What is considered to be normal in Portugal may not be normal in Mexico. So if I go to Portugal I would have to adapt to the values that are desired in your country. To simplify it- if you would end up on a island where there is a tribe in which it's normal and accepted for adults to engage in sexual activities like polygamy, polyandry, pedofilia...and the only way for you to survive there would be to adapt you would have to accept it or die even though you thought of such behaviours as deviant. People can be influenced more easily than you think, that's why Hitler's speeches are still being studied. People who followed him weren't mentally ill, at least not the majority. And now we come to the menatlly ill or those with some disorders. Such projections can have an even greater impact on them, in terms of encouraging them (such cases have already happened with the pedofiles and public transport gropers).

"It's a drawing (a very unrealistic one mind you) so it's obviously not meant to portray reality or acceptable conduct in any way."
Hehe, now this is just completely wrong. Our brains are functioning the way in which we recognise something like a human figure our even better- a face in something like clouds, or a landscape of Mars. I had a anime gif (I think I even posted it here, but I can't find it now Sad ) in which a girl asks an otaku- how can he be aroused by the such drawings? And he draws a couple of geometric objects and asks her what does she see- a human body she replied. That is exactly how our brains work. It doesn't matter if a girl has the giant purple eyes, if you draw her getting raped by some tentacle space-alien-ghost monster it will be child pornography. We are getting sad, angry, happy, excited, aroused by reading books, comics, or watching movies, anime...no matter how "unrealistically" the characters are presented we will always try to relate to them if possible, and that's why we emotionally react to such matterial. Trying to deny this is like trying to deny your nature and close your eyes to truth...but fapping to hentai is all the proof you need. XD
Again, lil girls in bathing suits wouldn't get banned. Think a bit. Just 'cose someone considers that a fanservice doesn't mean it would be against the law. I mean when you go to the beach, pool, etc. what do you see- lil girls swimming in full body suits? Of course you don't. It's common sense.
"And anyone that has a body of someone underdeveloped (which, lets face it, Rukia does) is considered a loli by this laws' views, which is why it's so fucked up."
Again in Rukia's case she is not that undeveloped to be banned. It can pass. In order for it to be illegal she would have to be shown having sex, etc.
"This is what I contest. You should not ban art, it's an attempt on freedom of expression."
There is a difference between art and child pornography. And like I said, there ain't such thing as an absolute freedom of speech, art, etc. in this world.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by 4Neodemon on Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:18 am

Wait im confused :S
They also want to ban nose bleeding or scenes like master roshi vs Bulma???? Common, that is innocent and fun....and Bulma or Orihime ARE NOT childs... at least i never saw them as childs!!
I agree with ningen about the child pornography, but female anime characters (main characters where sexual content is sometimes used) are full grown women (althought they have like 15 years in the animes..lol)... childs are for example ichigo's little sister...
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:35 pm

^ Well I think that that depends from case to case. But things like when Goku tapped Chi-Chi on her private area or when Bulma got grabbed by tits won't be allowed anymore. In the beginning Bulma did look like a child, but after a while she looked like she's over 18. But I can't say that Orihime looks like a adult to me. Although the point is that our subjective views don't matter. Lol'91 is right about Orihime. Since she is indeed only a high school student and is 16 years old, to the law she's still a child no matter how she looks. I already gave an example of a real life case in which you will get prosecuted if you have sex with a 16 year old person, even though he\she looked over 18 to you. Everything said about Orihime goes for Ichigo too. XD If the law against child pornography passes there won't be any scenes like those with him and naked Yoruichi. Now, of course artist can always say: "2 years later" and there will be perverted stuff popping out again in no time.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:24 pm

But you're taking into account the legality of the issue. What about the morality?

Would anybody in their right mind want to ban murals from famous churches just because the angels depicted are both young children and naked?
Of course not. So why is this any different? Because it's comedy? That's being pretentious in assuming one form of art is better than the other.

And what Tlaloc said is true. This is the Western world trying to force it's values on things that THEY think are wrong. What right do we have to but our noses in what the Japanese do?
P FUCKING S:

Ningen, I would like to point out again...this matter is very important and very very true.
loli hentai does not equal child pornography. Do not bundle up the two, seriously

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:11 pm

^ Loli hentai is child pornography. That's the definition of child pornography, if that's not child pornography then I don't know what is.
Lol, but moral arguments are even stronger then the law ones. Besides, law and moral are almost always connected (the rare exceptions are the law norms about let's say- on which side of the street the cars would be driven, etc.) You can create law norms that are against the moral norms of a society but such laws wouldn't last long, or would cause terrible effects. Law norms are made for defending the moral and material values that need to be protected.
The thing about angels is that they were never shown in a sexual manner, the accent was never on that. They weren't grabbing each other genitals etc. Their nudity had different meaning. In this day and age that is also avoided, so it's more a part of the history.
I don't care about western and eastern values, of course that every nation has it's own moral values, so if a woman goes for example go to some Muslim country she would probably have to cover her head, etc. But there are universal values too. Ones that transcendent these historically based ones. Ones that are the heritage of the whole humanity and they are not bound by borders and time.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by 4Neodemon on Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:39 pm

Ok... its easy then! Manga artists just have to draw female or male characters with more than 18 years lol! lol! lol!
That is no longer child pornography... althought in my view a 16 years old girl is already an women (i think this matter should be updated)... Those are different points of view, i know... Plus Master Roshi Vs Bulma or Goku/Chi-chi relation was totally innocent, and was only for the fun... I am shocked that somebody is actually considering that relation as child pornography Shocked Shocked Shocked
Seriously... that is totally extreme... and i also agree with lol91... people are just forcing their ideals to the others, and that is just stupid (get a life people)... like... if they do not like to see those anime girls, then go watch something else! because for a lot of people stuff like that is not child pornography!! Its just a matter of perpesctive...
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:00 pm

@ningen
You just said, different morals
And in Japan Hentai =/= CP. It's the darn truth

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by Tlaloc on Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:25 pm

With more and more laws which seem to supress our human spirit, soul, mind, instincts & nature; I would have to dare to point that this ban on young characters in anime and manga is being plotted by (I am serious on this, please don't send this thread to the SPAM area) the NWO. Yes, I believe NWO is behind this.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:47 am

@ 4Neodemon
My point is that there would be kids in anime, kids are protagonists in almost every second anime, and I don' see it changing. But what will change is the attitude toward them and it will be a change for the better.
Even now law acknowledges that at the age of 16 you can become adult, but only in the cases of emancipation (marriage, parenthood). But if you're not emancipated you're still a senior juvenile no matter how developed are you.
The thing about Master Roshi is that's he's anything but innocent. He is in fact a perverted old guy. So even though he's actions toward maidens looked innocent and funny to us there were far form it. In reality that's molestation, and there is nothing funny about a molested child. It's a big problem we all have in our countries and in some like mine it is still a taboo, so children are usually being molested for years before it is found out, because people look the other way.
I knew a girl in high school that had bigger tits than Orihime, she was really beautiful and all. If I was her parent and someone like Master Roshi would try to do the same to her I would inflict serious pain to that person and then he\she could tell me that it was all innocent later.
Child pornography is not a matter of perspective and it not something that should be let for every modern country to decide if it will be allowed or not. Loli hentai is child pornography, something silly like the borders of a country can't change it. The universal values are one of the greatest accomplishments of humanity and they are they key to living in a world with less injustice, pain and suffering and more respect towards human beings. And since we're all humans it should be applied wherever we exist.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:20 am

And THIS is why people don't get it.
You just tried to apply sense to anime...and that those attempts are fail. Anime does NOT make sense (unless it's something like SEL or Beck)

And, you cannot compare reality to drawings.
The law shouldn't be the same for both. It makes no sense

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:11 pm

^ Wtf, it makes perfect sense. Anime makes sense, how did you come up with the idea that it doesn't? It sends a message, there are reasons why people watch it. It's art lake any other. And people don't waste their money creating meaningless stuff, without any purpose (unless you know some eccentric millionaire) . I can compare it because like I said that's how our brains function. So it doesn't matter whether it is about cinematography, photography, literature, animation, or whether you put it in comics, radio broadcast, etc. you are responsible for everything you say or do in public.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:19 pm

it doesn't make sense applied to reality
You can't apply the same laws to anime as you do to reality, the same constrictions and restraints. It's going to be different, it has to be

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear on that

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:31 pm

It makes perfect sense. We can, because anime is a form of art and artist are responsible for what they show in public. It was always like that and it will continue to be like that.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by Tlaloc on Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 am

So does that mean it is OK if Schierke all of the sudden is taken away from Berserk all of the sudden?

Or if they retcon Caska's rape despite it was actually part of the plot and character development, instead of just pervy fanservice?

I can't believe people that don't even exist are getting more rights than real people! Soon it will be homicide to "kill" in videogames!

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:23 am

^ I don't know who is this "Schierke" you're talking about, please don't spoil it for me. Smile Now if anyone doesn't know about Berserk don't click on this spoiler, Tlaloc you should put that in spoiler too.
Spoiler:
First of all Caska was 18 years old when she was reaped and second of all not once was the details of it showed to the reader. That just shows that the restrictions and responsibility work. Kantaro Miura is a real artist. Yeah in it also clear that it wasn't a fanservice at all.
People that don't exists don't have more rights than real people. This is being done in order to protect the rights of the real people not vice-versa.
Women and children are especially vulnerable in every society, they are the targets of the sexual abuse, human trafficking, domestic violence, etc. Pedophilia is a big problem in every society and you can't hide that behind specific values of a certain culture. After the WWII children are being acknowledged more and more rights and law should protect them the most. That's why we should be so strict about pedophilia in any form. As I said it doesn't matter whether you put it in a song , novel, or you film it, you will be responsible for it.
And, yes, you're probably not aware of it but there are crimes called virtual crimes. So if you hack into (this actually happened and the women was found guilty) my account and "kill" my avatar in some online world, I can sue you for it. So you see, that was not done in order to protect some rights of a nonexistent person, it was done in order to protect the rights of the actual user who controlled it, in this hypothetical case- mine. There are more and more of such crimes happening as technology becomes unavoidable part of our lives, so it is interesting to see how will the law theorists handle it in the future.


Last edited by ningen on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:32 am

I give up.
It doesn't matter anyway, for better or worst, the law wont pass. Money wise, nobody in Japan would allow it.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:44 am

Lol, yeah, well money is actually the only "strong" reason against such law. So I wouldn't be surprised if it does not pass. People choose profits over human rights all the time in other parts of the world. At least the goals and values are set and unlike some of our ancestors we know that we are being given undeniable human rights at birth, so we all start form a better position than them. So hopefully the future will bring better societies.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by 4Neodemon on Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:07 am

ningen wrote:@ 4Neodemon
My point is that there would be kids in anime, kids are protagonists in almost every second anime, and I don' see it changing. But what will change is the attitude toward them and it will be a change for the better.
Even now law acknowledges that at the age of 16 you can become adult, but only in the cases of emancipation (marriage, parenthood). But if you're not emancipated you're still a senior juvenile no matter how developed are you.
The thing about Master Roshi is that's he's anything but innocent. He is in fact a perverted old guy. So even though he's actions toward maidens looked innocent and funny to us there were far form it. In reality that's molestation, and there is nothing funny about a molested child. It's a big problem we all have in our countries and in some like mine it is still a taboo, so children are usually being molested for years before it is found out, because people look the other way.
I knew a girl in high school that had bigger tits than Orihime, she was really beautiful and all. If I was her parent and someone like Master Roshi would try to do the same to her I would inflict serious pain to that person and then he\she could tell me that it was all innocent later.
Child pornography is not a matter of perspective and it not something that should be let for every modern country to decide if it will be allowed or not. Loli hentai is child pornography, something silly like the borders of a country can't change it. The universal values are one of the greatest accomplishments of humanity and they are they key to living in a world with less injustice, pain and suffering and more respect towards human beings. And since we're all humans it should be applied wherever we exist.


But its humour... Its not to be taken seriously!! If i make a joke about blonds, am i being racist?? When someone is making "stand up comedy" in front of a public and make fun about blonds, do you really think blonds will get upset?? they know its just for the laught... the same happens to manga artists!!
Roshi is a pervert old guy, but in a fun way... its just for the fun.. i know molested child is a serious problem, but we have to separate things!!! Humour/comedy its totally different from reality. Do you guys remember the french funeral youtube video about DBE??? Funerals are a serious thing but in that context, its just fun!!!

Plus, a child (like ichigo's sister) being raped in an anime is one thing (its sick hentai), but just looking to Orihime's boobs (for me, already a woman and im not changing my thought here just because some politic or someone in the past said a 16 years old girl is a child) and getting a nose bleed is totally a different thing (shounen comedy)... its not even hentai! (For me... of course! thats why i said its a matter of perpective)
Having kids in the anime is not a problem if they are not involved in those scenes... And if people want to consider teens like Orihime or Bulma childs, then they should be treated like ones in EVERY aspect!! Since the responsability (for their actions) issue to stupid things like not paying plain tickets to disneyland or stuff like that..lol
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:02 am

^ Yes, both dumb blond people and pedophilia exist in real life but can we joke about both things- no. The problem is that you can't compare those two so easily and here is why:
There is nothing funny in child molestation. The victims of child molestation can become permanently marked with it, the process of healing is very painful and it can stop the mental development of a victim. The children are a very important part of every society, because they are our future, but they are also one that is most vulnerable, so you can see why citizens are interested so much in protecting them from the sexual abuse, hard labor, health threatening living conditions, etc.
Now when you joke about dumb blond people you are being stereotypical, and perhaps not even that funny, but the point is that the relations and actions told in those jokes are not the ones that are usually against the law norms of a certain society. But if you would implement pedophilia in such joke you would be responsible for saying it in public. Think about it- If I say:"A blond woman walks into a store..." That's just my artistic freedom as a storyteller that doesn't go against the law norms, I could have said any color I wanted. In order for you to sue me you'll have to prove that I had in mind one specific person, which you obviously can't. In order for the public prosecutor to prosecute me as his official duty (like in the case of pedophilia) he would have to prove that my intention was to spread/start the hate for a certain group, which he can't.
Funerals are serious and for me that was a serious and very effective message to the people, I didn't laugh like- HA-HA. It was both sad and funny 'cause it's true. Furthermore if you understood what I said before, then you would understand that there is nothing illegal about presentation of the funeral, so you can act it in theatres and such...Following the same logic you can joke about stupidity, funerals, but you can't do a stand up comedy about pedophilia. Go ahead and try, go into a club and say: "I like my girls like I like my vine. - Ten years old and locked in a closet!!!!111" *ba dum tsh XD
And see what will crowd say to you. I bet that you'll make all the 10 years old laugh, especially those that are secretly being molested.
Wait, so just because someone has big tits that means that she is an adult in every other way? That logic is the reason for pedophilia in most cases. The recent one happened in Bosnia a few days ago when some of the high ranking officials of the small town were arrested in a secret operation. They were having sex with a "hot" gypsy over the years. And guess who her pimp was- her grandma. I guess that her grandma though she's all woman now too. Poor girl finally decided to report them all.
Once again you all started from the wrong premises.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by 4Neodemon on Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:40 pm

ningen wrote:^ . Furthermore if you understood what I said before, then you would understand that there is nothing illegal about presentation of the funeral, so you can act it in theatres and such...Following the same logic you can joke about stupidity, funerals, but you can't do a stand up comedy about pedophilia. Go ahead and try, go into a club and say: "I like my girls like I like my vine. - Ten years old and locked in a closet!!!!111" *ba dum tsh XD
And see what will crowd say to you. I bet that you'll make all the 10 years old laugh, especially those that are secretly being molested.

lol! lol! See, that was funny... and i already saw stand up comedy like that, but the guy was playing one of his characters...
There are also a lot of illegal stuff that are portrayed by actors in stand up comedy or in comedy shows... drugs for example.. or drunk people. Like i said, one thing is humour, the other one is reality... i can separate those two things.. maybe thats why those situations do not offend me.
I think this is not about laws, but perspective!
Of course a kid that suffer from abuse will not laught.. but think like this: you have a dog (rottweiler) and you love it... someone attacked by one of those dogs will defenitelly hate it and all dogs in generall, BUT is your dog guilty just because it is a rottweiler or are you guilty because you have one and love him? its the same principle!



ningen wrote:
Wait, so just because someone has big tits that means that she is an adult in every other way? That logic is the reason for pedophilia in most cases. The recent one happened in Bosnia a few days ago when some of the high ranking officials of the small town were arrested in a secret operation. They were having sex with a "hot" gypsy over the years. And guess who her pimp was- her grandma. I guess that her grandma though she's all woman now too. Poor girl finally decided to report them all.
Once again you all started from the wrong premises.

what means being adult... being responsible? make own decisions? being independent? This world is full of people with more than 30 years that do not have those characteristics above!!
Plus, people who said 18 years is the adult starting age are long gone... people "mature" much earlier in comparison with the past (both phisically and mentally).. world changed.. that are a lot of studies about that! Thats why i said issues like this one should be updated!


Plus there are women that have pimps too... its not only young ones that are exploited or raped. Adults also become permanently marked when they are the victims... its not only the childs. Yet there are lot of movies, animes or whatever with situations about that! We should ban everything? In my view, we have to separate things. A television show about rape is one thing... rape in real life is another one.
FOR ME nose bleeding or stuff like, that are present in animes like DB, its not child molestation... first, teens are not childs.. and second, even if they were those situations are not even a molestation... if i cant compare blond jokes with pedophilia then you can not compare those anime "situations" with child molestation... its way different!
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by ningen on Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:20 am

^ But my point is that you can't compare those things. Of course that cruel joke is funny to us, who dulled up their sensitivity over the years by watching all kind of things, but if you hold up for a second you'll see that it's not a joking matter. Such things happen and it's terrifying for the victim. So when I think about that I can fell only sadness, I mean- we're laughing about terrible suffering of some kids! No one sane will go and joke about those things whole night long. Again you got the whole thing wrong. Acting drug addicts and dealers is not against the law, you got them in the films, etc. But you can't put child pornography (indirectly yes, but directly no) in a movie. Furthermore I can joke about my problems with the drugs (like Pablo Francisco, now that guy is funny) and police can't do nothing because they can't prove nothing and I'm also joking about my own suffering so it ends up being funny. You're right it's all about perspective- and the correct perspective in a healthy society is that there is nothing funny about child porn and we should fight against it every way we can. But you're saying a ridiculous thing like getting raped is ok to the point it happens to you and then you'll hate all the rapists and it won't be funny anymore. I don't need to get molested or raped, trafficked, etc. to hate such acts and fight against them. All I need to be is a rational human being who cares about others.
The second part:
Dude, do you actually think that after thousands of years of practicing law we can't define it? From the science to the principles on which a certain society functions, everything will tell you that 18 years is an optimal age. You are starting from the exceptions like- there are fully developed humans under 18 and immature ones over 18. But law is interested in constants and they tell us that most people are able to become active members of a society with all the rights and their duties as ones when they turn 18. Now of course we also established ways for those under 18 to become adults and those over 18 to lose some of their rights. I couldn't read any further, you're starting from the wrong premises and I'm not in the mood for explaining basic things.

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by Venus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:48 pm

Meh i like what ningen is saying as i skimmed thru the thread. (That joke u popped was wrong but funny tho) I dont support child porn, hentai or just plain ppl foolin around unless they're married (call me old fashioned Razz) but i think ppl esp guys are gonna get their fix of boobs and whatever else no matter what, heh heh...the world IS really desensitized. its true.
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by lol1991 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:49 am

OH Venus your implying that anime fangirls aren't the ones that watch the most hentai is kinda funny

They're the ones that WRITE the most hentai

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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by Dracarot on Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:26 pm

There is a problem with child porn, and Manga sometimes goes a bit to far, however this law if it passes, may be overkill, rather than make more specific legislation eliminating the more problematic bits they seem to be going for more of a generic strike. Like dropping a nuke to kill one guy. So basically the law in general makes sense but nees much refinement so it isn't over kill, and as we all know, politicians everywhere, are either to lazy or to incompetent to work out those kinds of things. There is also the possibility that it would be excruciatingly difficult to find a proper balance.

But that's what people vote them into office for...
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

Post by Vampire Knight on Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:37 pm

isnt child porn still bad the same even if its drawn
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Re: So...as anime finally met it's match...

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