Why do westerners think Japanese anime characters are white?

here's a vid


I've been wondering that for quite some time now.......I mean for some odd reason westerners have a view of Japanese(well most asians) to look like that girl from mirrors edge, faith....someone who has slanty eyes...I never got it....is it cause of the fact that most famous actors in the west have slanty eyes? i mean if u look at the majority of people in asia...most have round, or even larger eyes than caucasians.......ahhh its all weird...

soo whats your take?

^Yea

for the record i do not worship americans or any western country, I do find a fascination in different cultures....its the same for most westerners that love anime and asian culture...most dont "want" to be white, black or asian at all

Agreed!!! And that is why the best cosplays for anime characters are asians!!!

Great Vid

I don't agree with everything said.
I don't imagine most of the characters to be caucasians, or Japanese, they just don't look like humans much to me when it comes to the face.
You can draw an anime character that's white or black, you can draw any "race" that is true. But, unless it's an anime that deals with history, or it could be some imaginary events that are happening in a real country I won't imagine characters as a specific "race".
To be honest, I really don't want to waste my time watching that video.
As for that comparison I could imagine caucasian female that looks almost the same as the female drawn...sry, it's just how it is in this case.

"You haters need to shut up. Goku was drawn white."

These are the words of a surprisingly large number of DBE supporters.

Goku is not caucasian, but Goku is not Japanese either.
The only reason I can think of that stands for why Goku should be played by an Asian actor is that he is created by a Japanese person, so DB is the part of Japanese culture.

Actually I do believe that Goku is in fact Asian. In this article there is mention that nationalities bear no resemblance to the manga.

"Director James Wong's Dragonball Evolution only follows the basic plot--Goku's search for the seven balls that will make his dreams come true--while the other details (characters, nationalities and setting) bear no resemblance. Goku has been recast as a geeky American high-schooler trained by his Asian grandfather, while Goku's trainer Kamesennin is not the bald old lecherous man of the comics, but instead a handsome middle-aged man portrayed by Chow Yun Fat."

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/arts/20090320TDY13001.htm

I am of those who knows that Goku isn't asian nor western since:

1.- He is an alien
2.- Even if he were from the Earth of his universe; he wouldn' be japanese, asian, westerner or something alike as while they may have similar enthicities in their world to our real one; they have different things like regions and names.

Tlaloc wrote:I am of those who knows that Goku isn't asian nor western since:

1.- He is an alien
2.- Even if he were from the Earth of his universe; he wouldn' be japanese, asian, westerner or something alike as while they may have similar enthicities in their world to our real one; they have different things like regions and names.

Amen
I'm sorry Kaizen, but the person who wrote that article is wrong about that, actually it's a really big mistake.
About that post:
Of course that manga artists are imagining people around them(unless it's clear that that is not the case).
But like I said, faces done by manga artists are mostly different then those in real life. Those more similar can be imagined as Japanese or Caucasians or...
A normal face is drawn with basic eyes, nose, and mouth. We will call this an unmarked style (no racial markers), as it is the very basic concept of a human face.

Whoo~~
Professionalism
I liek

@ningen
Yes, I agree with you. Nobody's eyes are as big a Goku.
But, what about... CGI and Editing?

ningen wrote:

Tlaloc wrote:I am of those who knows that Goku isn't asian nor western since:

1.- He is an alien
2.- Even if he were from the Earth of his universe; he wouldn' be japanese, asian, westerner or something alike as while they may have similar enthicities in their world to our real one; they have different things like regions and names.

Amen
I'm sorry Kaizen, but the person who wrote that article is wrong about that, actually it's a really big mistake.
About that post:
Of course that manga artists are imagining people around them(unless it's clear that that is not the case).
But like I said, faces done by manga artists are mostly different then those in real life. Those more similar can be imagined as Japanese or Caucasians or...
A normal face is drawn with basic eyes, nose, and mouth. We will call this an unmarked style (no racial markers), as it is the very basic concept of a human face.

I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I will address your issues.

First of all; I only expressed my thoughts as matter of opinion, as that is what it will remain to be unless the author himself makes a statement about what nationality he truly intended Goku to be. By saying that you know that Goku is not Asian nor Caucasian would be incorrect because there is no finite answer, yet.

I believe that most anime characters do infact have ethnicity. I also believe that manga characters are by majority, Japanese by intent.

For example: almost all highschool manga's show very specific Japanese behaviors. Now, a non-Japanese audience might not recognize this, but a Japanese audience most certainly will. And while the non-Japanese might want to say that the characters aren't expressly Japanese, that doesn't mean that the author did not intend for them to be Japanese.

Of course, all Sengoku era mangas feature Japanese characters, there is not much argument about this point. Foreigners are very specifically drawn to look foreign.

No racial markers doesn't mean there is no race, it just means that the author feels no need to express ones self as someone with slanted eyes, as they are referred to by non-Asians. However, I can assure you that there is race established by intent, wether you are willing to read into it or not.

A great example would be Rurouni Kenshin. Larger than life eyes, red hair, unmarked, yet very obviously Japanese, a Sengoku character.

Now, onto the issue of Goku. Really, the author has made no statement. I believe that if he really intended for Goku to be expressly Caucasian, he would have said so when defending the movie. However, he did not.

I also have to point out that Asian deities are considered to be Asian. The previous iteration of Goku was a deity from the story A journey West.

Ｉ’ｍ　ｎｏｔ　ｔａｌｋｉｎｇ　ａｂｏｕｔ　ｏｎｌｙ　Ｄｒａｇｏｎ　Ｂａｌｌ　ｍｉｎｄ　ｙｏｕ，　Ｉｍ　ｔａｌｋｉｎｇ　ａｂｏｕｔ　ａｎｉｍｅ・Ｍａｎｇａ　ａｓ　ａ　ｗｈｏｌｅ．．．ｔｈｕｓ　Ｋａｉｚｅｎｓ　ｅｘｐｌａｎａｔｉｏｎ　ｏｆ　Ｒｕｒｕｎｉ　Ｋｅｎｓｈｉｎ。Ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ　ｅｘａｍｐｌｅ　ｉｗｏｕｌｄ　ｕｓｅ　ｉｓ　Ｓｐｉｅｇｅｌ　ｆｒｏｍ　Ｂｅｂｏｐ，　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｉｓ　ｓｐｅｌｌｅｄ　ｉｎ　ｋａｔａｋａｎａ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒ　ｉｎ　Ｓｔｒｅｅｔ　Ｆｉｇｈｔｅｒ，　Ｋｅｎ　ｗｈｏ　ｉｓ　ｈａｌｆ　Ｊａｐａｎｅｓｅ　ｂｔｗ．．．　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｉｓ　ｓｐｅｌｌｅｄ　ｉｎ　ｋａｔａｋａｎａ　ａｓ　ケン。。。


good thing the dude in your post mentioned the katakana part...

yes if your name would be pronounced in japanese(to those that are not from there) are spelled in katakana sooooo goku would be spelled ソ ンゴク if he was foreign and not japanese

and did u notice the quoted message from the forum??? I LOLED HARD! Kishimoto did Naruto not Dragon Ball! i think people who post stuff like that dont have a say at discussions on Dragon Ball lol

I dont know if the first part will show in some browsers....i was set on Japanese and when you capitalize it switches to english....

I'm sorry if im sounding a little elitist in this thread...but if they are to make anime live action movies in the west, at least cast the right people

another thing Yamcha and Son Goku are similarly drawn...yet Goku is caucasian and Yamcha is asian

get me now? its all casting...since its being made in the west the majority would want a white dude as the main character in the movie, there are few instances where that is not true....but still you wanna know where asians get usually casted as? asian men will never get a lead role in western movie that is outside the martial arts realm....asian women are always the "dragon lady" in other words the eye candy....and asian men will always be relegated as the nerdy or geeky weakling if not the overly serious character that cannot speak english fluently....I still get weird looks when I speak english without supposedly pronouncing the stereotypical r's instead of l'

I don't think of them as white. I think of them as whatever they are.

K A I Z E N wrote:

ningen wrote:

Tlaloc wrote:I am of those who knows that Goku isn't asian nor western since:

1.- He is an alien
2.- Even if he were from the Earth of his universe; he wouldn' be japanese, asian, westerner or something alike as while they may have similar enthicities in their world to our real one; they have different things like regions and names.

Amen
I'm sorry Kaizen, but the person who wrote that article is wrong about that, actually it's a really big mistake.
About that post:
Of course that manga artists are imagining people around them(unless it's clear that that is not the case).
But like I said, faces done by manga artists are mostly different then those in real life. Those more similar can be imagined as Japanese or Caucasians or...
A normal face is drawn with basic eyes, nose, and mouth. We will call this an unmarked style (no racial markers), as it is the very basic concept of a human face.

I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I will address your issues.

First of all; I only expressed my thoughts as matter of opinion, as that is what it will remain to be unless the author himself makes a statement about what nationality he truly intended Goku to be. By saying that you know that Goku is not Asian nor Caucasian would be incorrect because there is no finite answer, yet.

I believe that most anime characters do infact have ethnicity. I also believe that manga characters are by majority, Japanese by intent.

For example: almost all highschool manga's show very specific Japanese behaviors. Now, a non-Japanese audience might not recognize this, but a Japanese audience most certainly will. And while the non-Japanese might want to say that the characters aren't expressly Japanese, that doesn't mean that the author did not intend for them to be Japanese.

Of course, all Sengoku era mangas feature Japanese characters, there is not much argument about this point. Foreigners are very specifically drawn to look foreign.

No racial markers doesn't mean there is no race, it just means that the author feels no need to express ones self as someone with slanted eyes, as they are referred to by non-Asians. However, I can assure you that there is race established by intent, wether you are willing to read into it or not.

A great example would be Rurouni Kenshin. Larger than life eyes, red hair, unmarked, yet very obviously Japanese, a Sengoku character.

Now, onto the issue of Goku. Really, the author has made no statement. I believe that if he really intended for Goku to be expressly Caucasian, he would have said so when defending the movie. However, he did not.

I also have to point out that Asian deities are considered to be Asian. The previous iteration of Goku was a deity from the story A journey West.

I think that some of your conclusions are wrong, and with some I agree.
The author of DB is not that superficial so you will never hear from him:"Oh, yeah, yeah, I truly intended Goku to be belong to this nationality." You will never hear that, and that is so out of the DB spirit and the message it preaches. So I know that Goku is not Caucasian or Japanese or...
He is an alien, what is unclear about that?
"I believe that most anime characters do infact have ethnicity. I also believe that manga characters are by majority, Japanese by intent." -I stated almost the same thing. Manga authors imagine most of them as Japanese people. But do the most of them look like Japanese people? No, they don't, they don't look like humans to me so it's improper to say that most of them do have ethnicity. Unless, unless they are drawn in more realistic manner, with distinct facial features(skin color, etc.), or it is said in the manga\anime that the action takes place in a certain country, or that such thing can be concluded in some other way(names of the characters, cultural references).
"No racial markers doesn't mean there is no race, it just means that the author feels no need to express ones self as someone with slanted eyes, as they are referred to by non-Asians. However, I can assure you that there is race established by intent, wether you are willing to read into it or not." I agree, it doesn't mean. But don't take Kenshin, that is a perfect example of what I said when I talked about cultural references and history, so yeah, even though his face is unrealistic I imagine him to be Japanese. But here is a proper example of what I meant- imagine, let's say, an anime in which action takes place in space. So unless the author stated that this is "The Royal Japanese battleship, Neo armstrong cyclone jet armstrong cruiser" and there are no clear facial features I won't imagine characters from such anime as Japanese or Caucasians and it's not important to me what author had in mind, because there are no distinct facial features that I can relate to, so I could imagine the person to be Caucasian or Japanese, etc., or I would not imagine the characters at all(as I usually do) as the real humans, who come from a distinct nation, sry, it's all a bit ridiculous to me.
As for the Goku, I already explained it...let's see, your last argument...ah yes, Asian deities and A journey West. Well, you see, mythology inspired the author to create this work of art. So, that work of art has been created by a Japanese person inspired by Asian mythology. That work of art is a part of Japanese culture. So, when somebody asks me:" Why should Goku be played by the Japanese actor? I will state that reason. But does it mean that Goku does have Japanese facial features, no. Goku doesn't look like a human to me at all, and not only that- Goku is not a human at all.
As for the question- why some people in the West imagine most of the manga characters as Caucasians? I would say- that's their problem. But when it comes to the manga\anime without cultural references some people may imagine those character as Caucasians, etc., it's just how or brain works. Imagine this interesting situation, you give manga (without cultural references, basic, simple manga)to a person somewhere in Africa, and that person never contacted anybody out of his\her tribe, so that person is unaware of the other cultures. Do you think that he\she would imagine drawn characters as Japanese? It's just how our human brain works, you'll imagine people from your surroundings, and that's all there is to it.

You are right, it is up to interpretation and it's human nature to code anime characters as your own image, be you Caucasian, Asian, African, or other. I will make this point, though. If I think an apple is a banana, then it's a banana, to me. However, if I were to discuss this with the majority of the world, they will tell me that I am wrong; that general consensus is that the fruit I am referring to is not a banana, but is in fact, properly called an apple. Just as in this case, you say that it doesn't matter what the authors intent is, or what other people think. However we are debating this on a world forum, so of course there will be a lot of evidence presented in proving that the characters are meant to look Japanese, with the few exceptions like Full Metal Alchemist and Boondocks.

Futuristic Mangas don't necessarily have a lack of ethnicity. In fact, Gundam is a good example of a futuristic manga with many different and purposeful ethnicities. In many cases you can tell by the name of the character, Japanese name, non-Japanese name, Chinese name. If someone tries to argue that Hiro Yu is Caucasian, I would laugh at them.

Now, for Goku, if the author intended for him to look different from the established Asian characters, I think he would have drawn him to look much different than he does. Obviously he knows how to draw characters that look different, like trunks and a few other characters that are clearly of Western influence.

The argument that he is an Alien is a valid one, and one that has been a thorn in my side for a long time. However, I say just because he is an Alien, doesn't mean he doesn't look Asian. He looks like a human, and all humans have ethnicity, so I say he has one, and why not Asian. Why not Caucasian? Well, follow the evidence provided in link two of my earlier post.

Following everything that you said, I believe that in debate, there is more evidence to be brought forth (in the majority of mangas) that the characters are supposed to look Japanese. Evidence that is not dependent on an insular and ethnocentric opinion.

Of course, allow me to bring you to the opposite side of the spectrum for a moment. American cartoons such as the Simpsons, Futurama and Family Guy are based on American culture and behavior. Their images are exaggerated and distorted equally as much as Japanese animation, however I do not code them as Asian just because I am Asian, they look American to me. I believe that Japanese Manga, based on Japanese culture should be treated no differently.

^Once again I agree with some things you say. But let me just clarify some things that I said.
If I think that something is a banana and the people tell me:"No, that's an apple, check the encyclopedia." And than I see that it's indeed an apple, because I see the picture and I read the description, so I'll come to the conclusion -Oh yeah it has the distinctive characteristics of an apple, it's an apple. But what if there is something that has the mixed characteristics of an apple and the banana. Some people will say- it's an apple, some- nah, it looks more like a banana to me, and some will say- no it's similar but different from the banana and apple, it's a banple! So you see that's that subjective feeling that becomes a problem whenever a discussion about art emerges.
About fantasy worlds-yes I agree, I said that, even if an action takes place in space I would imagine characters as Japanese or Caucasians if that is clearly stated, shown. But if it's not than I won't. Imagine a fantasy world where a guy called Richard exists. And the artist made his facial features very distinctive so that you can clearly conclude that he's from the East. Now imagine a fantasy world where a guy called Hiro Yu exists. You can't find any distinctive facial characteristic, or any other (except his name, although in that fantasy world that has no value as an argument). So you see what I'm saying? That person is Goku to me. He may look like human to you and an Asian to be more precise and that can be possible, I accept that some people perceive him like that. But he doesn't look like human to me at all, so I can't even say in what nation I could place him.
I really don't have the desire to read that post again because like I said to me Goku is neither Caucasian or Japanese.
As for the western cartoons. Let's take Simpsons for an example. You could absolutely recognize characters with Asian facial features.
Remember that episode where grandpa is talking to that Asian guy and calls him Ping-pong, and than he says something like- My name is Greg. And than the grandpa says - Suuure it is. XD Ah, such a great show...

STUPID! "westerners" dont think anime characters are white and ne1 who says so is oblivious to why we cast white people in our animes-turned-movies. it makes me mad to think that so many "foreigners" think that, we must be really stupid to you guys. like i said, its not that we think theyre white, its that we dont want asian people in our movies, its sounds racist or fucked up but its the truth, we're not gonna make a live action ghost in the shell movie where motoko kusanagi isnt angelina jolie, it just wont happen.

secor wrote:STUPID! "westerners" dont think anime characters are white and ne1 who says so is oblivious to why we cast white people in our animes-turned-movies. it makes me mad to think that so many "foreigners" think that, we must be really stupid to you guys. like i said, its not that we think theyre white, its that we dont want asian people in our movies, its sounds racist or fucked up but its the truth, we're not gonna make a live action ghost in the shell movie where motoko kusanagi isnt angelina jolie, it just wont happen.

thats one of the points i was trying to bring....asians in western movies will always be the "geek" or low self esteem nerd or the promiscuous "dragon lady" look at most of lucy liu's movies and the roles most asian men play in movies and tv shows from the west!

Warning: This might sound like a lecture, if you are not part of this civilized discussion, you might not want to read what I am about to write. I am extremely wordy and long winded. I know, boring, blah, sorry.

Ningen: you are entitled to your opinion. I won't try to shake that from you. However, just something for you to think about, do you not agree that some of the characters are meant to represent humans? Or are you not willing to look at this from any other perspective than your own? Does Goku not closely resemble those characters, in any way shape or form?

Also, there is a character from Dragonball that I'd like to point out: Commander Red, who I believe is like the equivalent to your example of the Ping-Pong/Greg from the Simpsons (I remember that episode), but a Western character amidst a bevy of Asiatic Characters.

And I agree with you, the world of humans is both subjective and objective. That is why you are allowed to think what you think, and why others are allowed to think what they think. We can only debate it and bring forth what evidence we can.

Secor: what you say is true. Not all Westerners believe that manga characters are all Caucasian, however, you cannot disagree with me that there are some that do and they are very vocal about it. I am only addressing the reason why those individuals might think the way they do. As a Mod, perhaps you might want to change the title of the thread to: Why do some Westerners think Japanese anime characters are white?

As for the American media casting predominately Caucasian lead roles, that is also very true! In the past, Hollywood protagonists have been casted by mainly Caucasians, along with a "token black guy". The token black guy became a subject of Hollywood ridicule as minorities had been seriously marginalized. I'm talking about trends from long ago, but occasionally resurface in current times.

I have discussed this in depth with one of my colleagues, in fact he is much smarter than I am, and some may have even read his writings before. What I learned from him really opened my eyes.

Casting a Caucasian to appeal to the general Western Audience might no longer be politically correct, as the Western world has now grown to encompass many different ethnicities and cultures, and in America alone, the Caucasian is no longer the majority. So if Hollywood were to keep on glorifying Caucasians and marginalizing minorities, they would be alienating many, many people. Due to this fact alone, Hollywood trends must necessarily change, or they will sink in the market.

I don't know if this is any indication of the value of being multi-culturally minded but Slumdog Millionaire was pitted against many Hollywood Blockbusters, yet walked away both critically acclaimed and with 8 Academy awards including Best Picture of the Year. A movie with no need for a Caucasian protagonist, nor even an American or Britton narrator.

So to your suggestion that Motoko Kusanagi being casted by Angelina Jolie is the only solution to Hollywood, I think that that is incorrect. But I won't even lie to you, I am a huge fan of many Caucasian actors and actresses, I just don't think that they will be taking every leading role forever.


K A I Z E N

lol @ "kaizen", thats a business term at my job. something like "good service, safety, blablabla..."

i have to agree with most of what you said but hollywood is mostly about image and literally what people look like. i think to hollywood, angelina would look like a perfect fit for kusanagi.

i also agree that hollywood wont be picking caucasians for lead roles forever, but they also wont be picking aspiring actors and actresses of color for lead roles for big/highly anticipated movies. by "of color" i just mean not white.

"Casting a Caucasian to appeal to the general Western Audience might no longer be politically correct, as the Western world has now grown to encompass many different ethnicities and cultures..."

as if it ever was politically correct? and america has been rainbow fished for much longer than movies were being made, so ur argument that its grown to be more ethnic and cultural is bull, only difference now is that people of color are more frequently becoming successful and becoming successful in a public like. look at sydney portier, dude was a great actor and successful at a time when there were no black actors around, they'd even give white actors facepaint to play a black person. also in movies like nancy drew they'd have the black guy whos practically retarded, bleh...

whatever, hollywoods still racist

Yea, it means improvement. LoL. Good name huh?

You don't think America has grown in terms of culture and ethnicity??? I'm not sure why I am arguing this point with you. America has been "rainbow fished" for a long time, yes, but were all fish always equally acknowledged? Did they always thrive and expand within America's border as they do now? No, I don't think so. Now is different, almost all barriers have been broken, this includes the U.S. presidency. I believe that ethnic minorities will begin to heavily permeate all aspects of American life, this includes Hollywood.

Anyways, we are getting off topic. Uh, something about anime ... wha?? Eh. I agree with you, though, Hollywood has been heavily inclined towards Caucasians in the past.

I like this forum, a lot of smart people to talk with. =)

K A I Z E N wrote:
Ningen: you are entitled to your opinion. I won't try to shake that from you. However, just something for you to think about, do you not agree that some of the characters are meant to represent humans? Or are you not willing to look at this from any other perspective than your own? Does Goku not closely resemble those characters, in any way shape or form?

Also, there is a character from Dragonball that I'd like to point out: Commander Red, who I believe is like the equivalent to your example of the Ping-Pong/Greg from the Simpsons (I remember that episode), but a Western character amidst a bevy of Asiatic Characters.

And I agree with you, the world of humans is both subjective and objective. That is why you are allowed to think what you think, and why others are allowed to think what they think. We can only debate it and bring forth what evidence we can.

I'm looking (at least that's my impression) at this from a perspective close to the center, so I could be as objective as a person can. Many people retrieve to some extreme corners because that's the easiest way to defend your statements in a discussion. But I try to look at the issue from all sides.
I think that most of the characters are meant to represent humans. Goku resembles humans in a shape and form. But if you look closely you will see that he has some distinctive attributes, characteristics that can't be related to humans.
Shape- Tail,and facial features(from hair to chin), of course- muscles on some of the characters. - I just love that style, the way some of the characters in DB are drawn, and that's is one of the reasons for me to say that no human resembles him. It's one of the reasons why some of the people on this forum were against this live action movie from the start, but when it's comes to art and the discussions about that special style Vegeta_DTX is the one I think you should be speaking with...unfortunately he's busy constantly trying to promote our cause. Heh, I remember having long, interesting talks with him just about the hair in DB.
Form- The abilities of his mind and body are very different than those of a human.
Commander Red does have some distinct Caucasian facial features, and I'm sure we can point out some characters with the distinct Asiatic features, but there are a lot of those without such distinctive marks, and that is one of the things that I like in the DB universe- I mean- you got entities of all shapes and sizes, such mixture...richness...abundance really was so fascinating to me when I was a kid.