So...as anime finally met it's match...

I meant, take out the stuff that is obviously child pron but give clearer guidelines for what constitutes it in manga and just where the line is... This law does posses a line but it seems to go a bit too far is what I meant...

Yeah, until we actually see the concept we can only speculate about its content.

And unfortunately for us normal people, Politicians seem to think only towards one extreme or the other (BOCTAOE)*

*But of course there are obvious exceptions

Thank you Scott Adams for the acronym

ohh that makes sense

So we're clear with what I'm saying, something had to be done but they went too far with it, tis a matter of balance.

ningen wrote:. But you're saying a ridiculous thing like getting raped is ok to the point it happens to you and then you'll hate all the rapists and it won't be funny anymore. I don't need to get molested or raped, trafficked, etc. to hate such acts and fight against them. All I need to be is a rational human being who cares about others.

No, it was not what i was saying... you said that some abused child would not find funny some stand up comedy actor making jokes about such matter, and i just gave that example!
Plus the main issue here is the fact that you are saying that animes like DB have child pornography... of course that im agaist child pornography.. the thing is.. its not present in DB (in my perspective those situations are not a molestation). In hentai? maybe... i only saw some hentai pics, so i cant talk about that! Its not my thing..lol

You have much faith in society and its laws.... most of them are totally wrong and some are really stupid!! I do not have to agree with the basics society ways... Since i was a child i questioned everything, because almost everything looked wrong to me... i am not sayng my view is the right one, BUT present views are not right too (that is obvious and that is why human civilization is falling apart). I am not going to follow or agree with something just because everyone do that... i have my own personality! In society i have to make things i dont like (respecting some laws i do not like, for example), but i do not have to agree with those laws... Sometimes people care to much about the others and create laws that suppresses our own freedom.. laws like this one from the topic about censoring animes!!

I agree with what Dracarot said!!

^ But my point is that your example was wrong because you used wrong analogy. And I just showed you that by mine example, using the same analogy. The (f#cked up) logic behind it is the same.
But it is present in DB, Bleach, etc. you name it. I understand that some people have a specific humor, especially when it comes to a material with a sexual meanings and implications. But the kids shouldn't be implicated in an explicit way in those scenes.
Erm, I think that you got me totally wrong with the last section. I haven't said that people shouldn't questioning basic principles or laws. That's why there are public debates before any law is passed in every democratic society. The society is falling apart because basic principles aren't being implemented the way they should. I actually have little fate in society and yes bad laws are frequently being passed around the world. But this one is not a bad one as long as it's done meaningfully.

yeaah

Look Child porno is bad.

Okay, B-A-D. You say it's just drawing, BUT Manga gets turned into anime. Therefore animated child porn. Then Children, teenagers, ect can see this visual sin.

Therefore it must be removed. Porno is bad all together, but child porno is despicable.

yeah thats what we said isnt it

Of course its bad....No one is denying it! but as i had said, things like master roshi looking or grabbing at Bulma's boobs and then she slaps him and he goes flying like a rocket in the sky, for me its not child molestation...lol... its just funny shounen anime humour... nothing more! Removing that from animes would make them less "anime like".. Those situations are like anime trademarks..lol

Anyway... manga artists just have to make their female characters with 18 years instead of 15 and its problem solved...LOL

It depends.

I myself did not like what Roshi did to Bulma. I mean if they had made her a bit older of course, that's humor though. That's HORRIBLE for you to believe such a trademark should remain. Anime should be about the quality of the program, not boob grabbing.

Exactly I forsee a large arsenal of eighteen year old women invading the manga multiverse, over the next year or so.

That's the thing I was talking about when I was explaining how the process of creating public opinion works, it's really interesting to see how something like that became so common and "unavoidable".

Peter Petrelli wrote:It depends.

I myself did not like what Roshi did to Bulma. I mean if they had made her a bit older of course, that's humor though. That's HORRIBLE for you to believe such a trademark should remain. Anime should be about the quality of the program, not boob grabbing.

Exactly I forsee a large arsenal of eighteen year old women invading the manga multiverse, over the next year or so.

You obviously don't get this.
If I liked it, I wouldn't be into the type of anime I am. I just think that it's a part of the medium
Fanservice as been with this medium since it started.
Ranma 1/2
Dragon Ball

Want another example? ever heard of the famous "GAINAX bounce"? The style of animating breasts that's a staple of humor and fanservice within the subculture and medium of anime
It started over 20 years ago, with a little show called GunBuster, that now a days is considered a work of art and a tribute to mecha anime (the show)

Like it or not, fanservice is a part of this medium. And taking it for either good or bad, it's what keeps it alive.

And I'm defending this because it goes BEYOND just anime and manga. This is a damned assault on freedom of thought, not just speech, thought.

Read this:
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html
I assume you know who Neil Gaiman is. If you don't, he's the guy that wrote "The Sandman", that comic from DC

Still, you seem to want lolicon banned, and people prosecuted for owning it, and I don't. You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art.

Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.

This is why I defend this. Because I know just how twisted the human mind can be. Call me an alarmist, but this is the progression of things, from hentai to anime resulting in the entire medium getting fucked

Don't think this isn't what's going to happen, because it is. The western world looks at anime as pure utter shit for kids, and nobody is going to take it seriously.

Also, enjoy the recent google ban on certain manga streaming sites.

http://littlewhitebutterflies.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/and-so-it-ended/
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/04/20/google-bans-loli-site-as-child-pornography/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-04-19/google-drops-scanlation-site-from-search-results

Now...I mad:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/07/schmidt_on_privacy/

This better be a joke? What the fuck is this bullshit?
I'm switching over to some other search engine, screw this shit

First of all I would just like to point out what Yagami told me- the news about this were old and that the law did not pass.
Nevertheless I think that the discussion about this was more than needed.
Now about this lol'91's newest arguments:
I have nothing against fanservice (if the artists think something like that should be put in their works) as long as it's not a front for child pornography.
And as much as I respect Neil Gaiman as a writer I can't agree with everything said there. This argument about "...freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending..." just doesn't stand up. And (even) I could easily crush it with one simple example: Let's take that pedophile pediatrist from USA. Now, he filmed himself raping hundreds! of his patients. He could fight for his "freedom to own material that he believes is worth defending". That's where that fail logic leads us.

But that isn't a fair comparison and it's ignorant to think otherwise
Children were harmed during that. He had no rights because he violated another persons rights

You tell me who's harmed when someone with a good imagination and drawing skills makes a hentai manga?

See the difference?
This harms no one.

The only people that want it banned, want it banned because THEY find it wrong, not that its actually wrong

PS:

About the old news, yeah, I think I posted it here over a week after I heard about it
I just got the links then, so I couldn't post before

Anyways, this Google thing seriously scared the shit out of me

lol1991 wrote:But that isn't a fair comparison and it's ignorant to think otherwise
Children were harmed during that. He had no rights because he violated another persons rights

You tell me who's harmed when someone with a good imagination and drawing skills makes a hentai manga?

See the difference?
This harms no one.

The only people that want it banned, want it banned because THEY find it wrong, not that its actually wrong

It's a fair comparison. Setting one "art" aside from other wouldn't actually be fair.
And I told you that whole "nobody is hurt in drawings" way of thinking is wrong. That's what's ignorant.

Who's hurt?

You choose yourself to view what you view. If you aren't mature enough to view such things, then your guardians should stop you

It's the same argument as with that GTA thing years back.
People argued that people acted on it from playing it too much. There was actually correlation, and it wasn't banned
However, since this is "lol japan shit" people go with it and don't give a shit

It's fucking hypocritical

^ No, it's different with violence. Violence seen in the movies, video games does not affect you in the way of making you more violent. People tried to prove it experimenting on kids and failed.
Listen, I already explained you how our brains work and I really don't won't to repeat myself. Filming a child getting raped or drawing it is the same thing. If you're that much interested in the "who's hurt?" arguments you should research this topic a bit more. Google about it and you'll find what the intellectuals, great law minds etc. have to say about it and you'll see how easily you'd be crushed if you'd walk into a courtroom\participate in a public debate with a "nobody's hurt" "argument".

Except that the supreme court doesn't let shit like this fly
If you tried to present a proposal like this in the US they'd vote it down easily

Also no thanks, I'm not using google anymore after the shit they just pulled.

And yes, you've said that, but it doesn't mean I'm convinced. Show me statistical evidence that loli hentai increases the rate of child molestation, and then maybe you'll have a point

Sure, you see them as human, and that's why hentai exists in the first place
But there is NO correlation between lolicon's turning into child molesters

^ Depends on the state. I'm sure that in some states it's illegal to own manga with child pornography and if you got to court with "nobody's hurt" you go to jail...for a long...long time. I don't agree with the length of the sentences though, they should be shorter.
Lol, you're missing the point. First of all, yes, it's proven that sexual content (in no matter what form it is and in what age we are) has a major influence on our brains. But you don't even need proof for that, jeeez, just start from yourself. Now it's another thing whether it will make you lurk around schools, of course. But that's not the point at all. The main purpose of laws against child pornography is something else.
Face it- the only argument that can be used to defend child pornography, in any of it's forms today, is money. Not the cultural differences, not the freedom of speech or "artistic" freedom and not the "absence" of victims- it's money, clear and simple.

Except that isn't the only thing that defends it

YOU think that it's wrong, I don't like it either, doesn't mean I'll consider loli child pornography...because it isn't.

Hentai is not the same as pornography in general because it's just a depiction. Actual pornography needs people involved, hence there is more to it than just that. It's the entire reason child pornography is banned, because children are harmed during the making of it.
No one is harmed during the making of hentai, and what follows is what follows.

Banning it for it's existence is just wrong if it alone does no harm.
Again, you are defending your point as if loli hentai = child pornography, which it doesn't.

Also, lol at the money thing. Outside Japan almost nobody buys the stuff, so it isn't exactly an argument as well.
Also, you haven't said anything about the google thing.

Why, what's wrong with Google?