Son Goku vs Apocalypse.

LIES! No hyperboles aloud in real debates. I'm just going to ignore you from now on until your actually debate. Cell lied no that's non cannon in real debates non canon material isn't aloud if it's not in the manga it ain't aloud. Goku looses so sad too bad

Fine then, get ready to STFU on this.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-ball-chapter-416-page-4.html

THERE! SEE! STOP FUCKING ASSUMING YOU KNOW MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE GOD FUCKING DAMN IT! IT'S STARTING TO PISS ME OFF!

Ok...calm again. As you can see, Cell stated IN THE MANGA, that he gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system...so now then...one can assume that anyone stronger than Cell CAN blow up the solar system, even if it costs them there lives.

So now then, are we still going to assume that people that blow up solar systems CAN ONLY LIFT 40 FUCKING TONS!

No No your wrong Cell cannot destroy a solar system that's BS. You can't do that i na REAL debate if he had destroyed a solar system. I can say I can kill Superman dosen't mean I can. Yes Strength isn't determined by ki If I can lift a car and I have the power to nuke as well dosen't mean my strength will increase Cell could lift like 20 tons Goku at the end of the series struggled to lift 40 so yeah

WHAT THE FUCK!

You have the evidence right in front of your nose and you STILL TELL ME that Cell can't blow up a solar system...your starting to remind me of the DBE supporters. No matter how much we tell them, and shove it up their faces, they never listen. For someone that hates them so much, you're a awful lot like them I see.

And as you know, I don't argue with people like that. In case you haven't realized, there is a poll in this thread now. Vote your opinion and sit with it. I give up.

Polls don';t determine the winner Goku looses.

Why even argue with Evovultion Gawku I mean Anime goku It's not worth your time

I know I always win!

^Only in your head

We others, just laugh at your nonsense

Ok to Evolution Goku, as apparently that is just as powerful as you think Goku is, one more time you say Goku can lift a building or that cell can´t destroy a solar system, and Im gonna virtually smack you or something, really, enough of the nonesense.

To the other rational people, personally I think the Flash is way overated, really he originally was a dude that runs fast, thats it, over the years they have had to come up with other supplemental powers that are just derived form the fact that he runs really fast, powers that frankly are kind of silly.

I mean a proff that the flash is an uninteresting character is the fact that the power and the costume is interchangable: i mean look at batman or superman, only Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent/Kal El can be Batman and Superman, stories in witch there are other people wearing the costume and the powers are either to proff the fact that only they can be the real batman and superman, or are really crappy stories.

Even Green Lantern people tought Green Lantern is the ring, so several people have used this ring, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Kyle Ryner, but at the end the real GL the good one is Hal Jordan and the ring always returns to him.

This is proff that a power or a costume does not a hero make, is the man behind the personality behind.

Flash is a character that is so unintersting that he has changed identities countless times during the years, and no one really cares who is the dude running really fast in the red costume.

Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen, some girl, Impulse, I don´t even know who Flash is any more, and I don´t care.

Unless it is the Phantom a character in witch the costume or the power is more important than the personality is a bad sign.

And when writers start making up silly powers instead of interesting stories, it is also a bad sign.

Come on look at the flash villians, a dude dressed as an eskimo who is a cheap copy of Dr Freeze, an aussie guy with bumerangs, a talking gorilla, come on, and you telling me he can beat a guy who beats Galactic Warlords who destroy planets with a finger, super androids who could destroy solar systems out of spite, or a magic creature who could absob anyone and their powers and add to his own, and who lift a hand and killed the entire population of earth in a few second?

Come on, to say the Flash can beat Goku for me is just insulting, a dude that can run fast against a guy with super strength super stamina, super speed flight, teleportation, energy attacks that could destroy planets or galaxies, with several more powerful transformations, is just ridiculous.

I mean flash could beat Superman in a race, but never in a fight, so he couldn´t beat Goku either.

All he had to do is close his eyes feel his ki, calculate his exact location teleport there and blast him with a kame hame ha, and thats it for the flash.

And if we are talking speedsters I take Qicksilver any day, he may be slower, but at least he has personality, his arrogance, superiority/inferiority complex, his father issues, his problems with his sister, ex wife and daughter, the fact he is a reformed villian.

This is not a costume and a power is a character.

And if we are gonna talk powerful characters, come on, bring the real big leagues, The Spectre, Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, Dark Phoenix, yes, the freaking Clestials, now we are talking.

Not the Flash

Stop calling my Evolution Goku now. Goku has trouble lifting a building so he can';t and Cell cannot destroy a solar system. I don't care Flash is god now no matter how silly his abilties are. Yeah Flash goes easy on his villians he dosen't loose there's one time he said "Ah your an alien finally I don't have go easy! I can get the scan up and you know what stop making lies about Goku he can be stabbed, cut, burned but you'll never listen so keep thinking that. Flash is trillions times faster than light and Goku isn't. Unless you give me proof debate is over Flash owns Son Goku. Flash is more powerful than normal Superman last time the fought Superman always gets stronger though. Flash beat Darksied.

Whoah your fanboy level is over 9000!(That was meant to be a joke). So lies Flash owns Goku. Yes the flash your right he does win you finally understand!

Wait...your still on the building crap.

For starters, you know what, GT doesn't count anymore. I mean, for me it does sure, but it's not FROM THE MANGA like you said it has to be.

So, without that little incident with the building, bring me PROOF, and I mean stated PROOF that Goku can only lift 40 tons. A scan of the exact page where he said so. Then I won't bring the lifting 40 tons again.

And finally, I'm going to start doing something. Each time you tell me that Cell can't destroy a solar system, I will post this
http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-ball-chapter-416-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-ball-chapter-416-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-ball-chapter-416-page-4.html

Proof. A statement from the manga. Want me to find the scene in the anime? Do you prefer subbed or dubbed, because I can find both.

And finally, there is nothing faster than light. You can only go AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Faster than that, and your body decomposes, no matter who you are. There's this little thing we are made of called atoms...look it up.

Sure Flash can go at the speed of light, that goes without saying.

No hyperboles are aloud in this conversation LOl. Cell CLAIMED he could destroy a solar ssytem Freeza SAID he could destroy a planet and he did. My point is that dosen't count in a serious debate hyperboles aren't aloud in this debate. I use to think so but somone said that's like me saying I can blow up a building.

The manga didn't state it Cell did he could have meant he'll destroy one planet at a time. ALL characters in DBZ can be destroyed by the sun, Finally lol you can't ignore proof.

I'm tired of you saying that I't's my debate now than new rule if there's a scan that SHOWS a character doing something you can't deny it. Check any wikia with Flash it says faster than light so get over it. Flash can move FTL and win the fight too bad so sad.

So Flash CAN move faster than light any flash fan knows that. Also Aolcypse wins this by waving and teleporting Goku into the sun give up please? How can Goku stop something Faster than light debate tell me

Wait, so you still say Cell can't do it. Why would he lie. He had nothing to lose.

And you still haven't answered the 40 tons question

lol1991 wrote:And you still haven't answered the 40 tons question

Anime Goku, I feel sorry for you

...btw, just look at the pool

Fine. Do you prefer Anime or manga scans?

Anime Goku wrote:Fine. Do you prefer Anime or manga scans?

Scans, anime, all the same. But if you bring me the GT part, it will mildly annoy me since I have explained that part already.

Let's revive this debate, and use common sense.

First off Apocaylpse has went toe to toe with the hulk, so can we agree Apocaylpse far surpasses Goku when it comes to physical strength?

Well I have one point to bring up regarding those 40 ton weights.

The world of the kais was ten times earths gravity.

So unless the kais already accounted for that the 40 ton weights would actually weigh more like 400 tons.

Which now opens the question of whether the kai's included this into the weights or not...

Sorry for just opening up another can of worms on this debate...

Not only that he wasn't lifting the training with to make his body move faster and making him stronger.

First off what proof do you have of Goku being on Apocaylpse's level of strength?


This is an alpha level mutant who's went toe to toe with a fully enraged Hulk. Goku barely has any strength feats. He STRUGGLED to lift a bus in the episode where he learned to lift a car, heck Piccolo had to help him lift the bus.

Apocalypse is also capable of keeping up with marvel speedsters.

I've little idea about the Marvel Universe so I'll just state what I know and give an actual numerical value to Goku's strength and leave it to others to calculate his odds against Apocalypse.

First key figure Super Saiyan is a times 50 transformation (based on some of the last power levels ever actually mentioned Goku = 3 million before transformation 150 million afterwords), so each level of Super Saiyan is probably another times 50 multiplier (is this acceptable logic), allowing for a minimum power level for Goku of 375 billion.

This is supported by the next key figure, in the anime it is mentioned that the Supreme kais were 1000 times stronger than Freeza and yet Buu powns them similar to how Raditz first powned Goku so we can give him a minimum power level of 360 billion (120 million (freeza max) times 1000 times 3 (how many times stronger Raditz was compared to Goku)

(Remember these are minimums)

Now these power levels are useless, until you put in it takes 18000 to blow up a planet and its moon (as Vegeta showed at Arlia) so divide Goku's max power level of 375 billion by 18000 and we can come to the conclusion he has the power to destroy 20 million 833 thousand 333.3333 planets AT MINIMUM (We didn't have enough nukes to that even at the height of the cold war...)

Now as to the infamous weight issues, although Goku is often seen having trouble lifting objects, (particularly regarding the building and bus incidents) I would just like to point out that as the hero your trying to save the people inside or your picking up what ever it is to toss at someone, so you need either the people inside of the thing or the thing itself to stay intact as your lifting it, so if they applied all their strength then newtonian physics would have kicked in with catostrophic effects (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) So naturally Goku has to be careful with how much power he applies and thereby puts in too little effort. As for the infamous training weights scene, remember before he went super saiyan he was training at 80 tons total (the 8 tons of the weights multiplied by ten for gravity) now he increased this five fold in front of South Kai at King Kai's request (he didn't need to go all out, remember South Quadrants weak) but remember a super saiyan transformation is a times 50 multiplier so he could have done 4000 tons of weight as a super saiyan (400 tons times ten for gravity) then there is the Super Saiyan 2 level in which he would have gone up to 200 thousand tons. Now the Titanic's weight (not in gross which results in the 46000 ton range) was 66 thousand tons so Goku at Super Saiyan two could have been training with the equivalent of more than three Titanics for weights (other numbers titanic was 882.5 feet long 92.5 feet wide and 60 feet tall, not including funnels which made it even higher) this is the equivalent of a fairly large sky scraper I'm sure, and we haven't even gotten to Super Saiyan 3 yet at which it would have been 10 million tons, which is equivalent to 151 and a half Titanics!

This leaves the speed category, Goku may be limited here, the best number on Instant Transmission is that it's exactly the speed of light, so Dragon World is probably limited by the laws of physics in terms of speed. If Apocalypse has the power to go beyond this on his own then it doesn't matter where they go, if physics just has less consequence in the X universe then where they fight could have an impact on the outcome.

The Marvel experts may now speak, I think I covered everything I needed to for calculations, unless people feels these numbers are innacurate.

Okay you made a lot of mistakes in that post. FIRST OFF Power level does NOT determine physical strength, it demonstrates overall power. But you should read uncanny X Men, Amazing Spiderman, and the rest Marvel comics are AWESOME.

Second I'm not counting WHAT IF/Filler. If we count filler feats, and such..then I'm going to start bringing in alternate universe Apocaylpse's.

Vegeta cannot destroy a planet. At least not in the Saiyan Saga, that's a hyperbole. The Destruction of Arlia was filler. Freiza in his base form had a power level of 500,000, and it took him quite a while to gather the energy necessary to destroy Planet Vegeta. Power Level's determine the raw power of the character overall, not one factor such as physical strength, or their destructive capacities.

That's not true. Goku could pick up the bus/building easily, and set it down calmly. He struggle's he's not "under-exerting" himself. I cannot argue about the speed factor sort of. Goku's Instant Transmission is teleportation, but it's technically the speed of light.

However raw speed is better then teleportation. Apocalypse outclasses even Quicksilver in terms of speed, and is capable of demolishing the X Men. His only weakness is plot-kai. He outclasses Goku in raw speed, meaning he can blitz Goku. What use is Goku's teleportation, if Apocaylpse beats him up before he can even access the speed? Apocaylpse just needs to hit Goku once, and Goku's dead.

Noooo my calculations, my beautiful calculations, all worth nothing!!!!! Gahhhh!!!!! The Horror The horror!!!!! I knew most of these were anime based but I thought at least some were based on events in the manga!!!! Plus I figured since DBZ at least was under AKira Toriyamas direction more or less they still would have counted!!!!

But out of curiosity, if we were dealing with Anime Goku (including filler) what would be the outcome???? (In other words if my calculations were valid what would be the outcome?)

CALM DOWN! Some of your...calculation's are based on the manga.

Filler is what's made while waiting for the manga. Watch Dragon Ball Kai,it's DBZ with NO Filler.

It would be a mess. Vegeta can planet bust, meaning the energy needed to destroy planets would be less. However THIS Gives Apocalypse the advantage. He would gain tons of destructive energy from Goku, amplify it with his own, and he'd pwn Goku.

Goku can't win this fight regardless, the only debatable thing is speed. Apocaylpse went toe toe with a fully enraged Hulk.

Instant transmission speed can not be the speed of light... From the sun, light takes 7 minutes to reach our plane... Goku can instantly teleport between galaxies and even dimensions... light is way way way slower than teleport!